Everyone knows children are capable of expressing opinions and giving consent.

Everyone knows this? I disagree, looking at how many people will routinely express their beliefs on the subject by saying "children can't consent, therefore pedophilia is wrong".

This view does not want to change society's values so dramatically that sex with other people is only an action of the moment and taking into account emotional bonds or broader context is actively discouraged.

I certainly wouldn't want that. Tell me someone who does.

The common argument here at GC is that this is all due to society's misguided attitude shaming them.

That's an argument I tend to agree with. I don't buy into your explanation of "regret" as reasonable grounds to dismiss adult-child sex, either...

The danger of regret may be present at all ages...

...Exactly...

...but in contrast the cost to refraining from all sexual activity (with others) rises dramatically with age...

Hmm. True.

People want a sex life, and so society paints an arbitrary line (mostly around age 16 these days) where the benefits have a fair shot of exceeding the costs in regret. Rising social knowledge also means the chances of avoiding to-be-regretted situations go up.

Agreed, except where you would talk about regret, I would talk about the power imbalance and the resulting ease with which children can be manipulated and coerced into doing things. I call bullshit on the notion that a child's consent is invalid because she might regret it later... a better argument in my opinion is that children are susceptable to being taken advantage of. Personal dissatisfaction or lack of understanding leading to regret? Not a good enough reason to criminalize something, IMO; high probability of exploitation? Now THERE'S a good reason.

In this enlightened view it has nothing to do with wanting to control young people or fear of their sexuality.... The prohibition is motivated simply by best judgment as to what maximizes the long-term happiness of the minors involved.

Our views on this are essentially in agreement, but our reasonings differ.

I just don't believe the greater likelihood of a "to-be-regretted" situation (why is it "to-be-regretted"? Because of society's attitudes towards it, and then I fall back on that good old common GC argument you mentioned) makes much sense an an argument for the prohibition of sex with anyone. OTOH, perhaps it's your Evo-Psych background that enables you to see it that way, and in that case, I would understand....

Can I briefly mention something slightly off-topic?

If I'm considering whether or not a particular sexual situation is unethical, then "How old is this particular human being?" doesn't enter into the equation in any way that's relevant in and of itself....

Has there been any manipulation or coercion? Does she understand what's happening? Is she participating of her own free will? If the answer to the first question is "no", and the answers to questions two and three are both "yes"... then there's nothing wrong with it.

Unfortunately, there's that social context to worry about. If you're "caught", then what was an otherwise harmless situation suddenly contains a huge amount of harm for her. So in my opinion, a responsible girllover of strong values and good judgement will refrain.

It's that social context, and the law, which prevents me from "acting". The consensual sex is not unethical and no one is getting hurt.

I get the feeling that's where you disagree with the "pro-contact" mindset. You disagree, (and correct me if I'm wrong), because of you believe that, in the majority of cases, the girl is going to regret it later on, and you do not believe that this is due to negative social attitudes, but rather that it is an intrinsic pattern.

But I have a question to ask you. In your experience, have other anti-contact pedos (say, the ones at VirPed) really given it that much thought? Or are their views pretty much consistent with the old "sex-with-kids-is-just wrong", "they-just-don't-understand", and "it's-different-because-they-can't-consent" fallaces that end up being regurgitated in every debate I've had about this with a non ever?

- Rainbow