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Posted by Dissident on Sunday, February 19 2023 at 9:53:55PM
In reply to Antagonizing... posted by griffith on Saturday, February 18 2023 at 4:43:48PM

"And what would Putin's Russia and China do if they were not antagonized?"

Be despotic regimes that were less inclined to get pushed into nuclear war and helping the despotic regime that is the U.S. government and its NATO allies to profit off of yet another destructive war. There are ways of dealing with despotic regimes, but that way is not other despotic regimes. The way is for the people of the world to stand up and challenge the system that allows such despotic regimes to exist in the first place. It does not come in the form of the common people taking the side of one despotic regime over another, however. That ignores the overall problem.

"They would be doing the same as criminals would do if they were not antagonized, if there were no laws: they would commit more crimes."

Since when has the U.S. government ever obeyed international laws, listened to policies formed in good faith by the U.N., or honored treaties it signed in good faith or promises made or implied? I say this without taking the side of Russia and China. Rather, I say this as a member of the international working class who does not want to live under the current world order where competition for profit by a variety of despotic ruling classes causes constant wars with the constant threat of nuclear exchange.

"Putin would invade Ukraine, then the Baltic countries, then maybe Finland."

The U.S. would continue to antagonize these rival regimes for control over the profitable energy and currency exchange markets anyway, and find some other excuse to do so.

Which is why they launched that coup to implant a puppet government in Ukraine in 2014 and got them to say they would consider joining NATO, which would put U.S. forces right up against Russia's front door, an explicit act of hostility; and refused to cede control of the Donbas region, which is filled with Russian speaking people that have an ethnic connection to Russia and were tired of being bombed by the main Ukrainian government.

The U.S. has long acknowledged that Taiwan is part of the Chinese government and promised to take no sides in the former's government's insistence that it be independently governed--and btw, the Taiwanese government is no less despotic than the Chinese.

The U.S. government is going against the above previous acknowledgement of the anti-secession law the Chinese government calls the One-China Principle, and doing what it's doing in Ukraine, not because it's filled with heroic champions of freedom who are trying to be selfless super-heroes, but because it is actually ruled by self-interested plutocrats who are indebted to powerful munitions companies that profit off of endless war, and the fringe benefit of how non-stop wars gives the government more excuses to censor political dissent and access to information. Another major reason is because Russia was selling liquefied gas and other products at much cheaper prices to European nations; and because China was taking different approaches in financial deals with other countries that were undermining the U.S. government's efforts to dominate business interests in these locations.

Russia and China were also working with the U.S. government's good friend, the very despotic Saudi Arabian government, to develop an alternative currency to the U.S.'s petrodollar hegemony that has the entire world dependent on American currency as the de facto currency of the world.

Russian invade Finland? Seriously? It has neither the military resources nor the financial incentive to do so. And money governs all motivations of this nature.

This is all competitive business as usual in a world order run by plutocrats that support this system. That means constant wars, which means the constant suffering of the labor class in every nation who have to make "sacrifices" for it, which means the constant threat of nuclear war. It has nothing to do with a simplistic Good Guys wanting to stop Bad Guys from Hurting the Innocent narrative. You need to stop listening to the corporate-controlled propaganda machine run by a mere five big media companies in the U.S. with huge international power and influence that has a vested interest in keeping the global working class complicit with the business interests of the U.S. when it goes to war with a rival group of plutocrats. We need to take matters into our own hands, and supporting one or the other of these despotic regimes is not the way.

"Now many Americans may find themselves thinking: what the fuck would it matter? Those are small, insignificant countries anyway, who cares about them? In other words many Americans, though they might hate their country and its imperialistic attitude, may still in reality only appreciate the great powers and disregard the small countries."

I care very much for the labor class, the common people, in these smaller countries. But their governments are generally no better than the bigger nations, as they operate in the same world order with the same motivations. And when they do achieve better, more democratic nations, the bigger nations like the U.S. frequently attack them via a coup d'etat to replace these more democratic governments with despotic regimes that are more business-friendly to the U.S. plutocrats. Or they destabalize and bomb smaller nations themselves, as they have done with Syria and Libya, and as they are now helping Saudi Arabia do to Yemen. Honestly, Griff, where was your concern for the people of these smaller countries when it was the U.S. and its allies doing the attacking instead of Russian or China? Also, keep in mind that many small African nations are favoring the less imperialistic approach of China in terms of business dealings, which is another reason that the U.S. government finds China a business rival to be eliminated.

This is, again, not to defend China and Russia, but to point out that the U.S. is no better and its alleged dedication to "freedom and democracy" are mere buzzwords when the going gets rough.

"--griffith, European--"

And I care about you, and all the common people who comprise your neighbors, my friend. Which is one of the reasons I do not want to see you suffer because the U.S. is attacking undermining the ability of Germany and other European nations to acquire cheaper natural gas prices from Russian due to the greed of the U.S. government. This war is not benefiting anyone in Europe, and the U.S. government could care less about your people, just as it cares less for the common people in its own territorial rule.

"I'm not here to start any debate, let alone dispute,"

Well, you got a debate anyway, but no dispute, my friend :)

"I spend all my energy, what little I have left, on that ambitious plan I have mentioned before. When my daily work is done, I just want entertain myself, not debate or dispute."

Well, I think you could entertain me and others better with some witty jokes and funny stories :D


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