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Posted by Dissident on Saturday, December 10 2022 at 10:58:55PM
In reply to You sure it was Open Hands? posted by Eeyore on Saturday, December 10 2022 at 5:44:08PM

I think I was here before you, and I know jd was here before me. Did you start at OH before here?

Jd420 wasn't here before you, as my own recollection goes. I first met him at Open Hands, and he followed one of the links I left to GC here. And I started here on GC back in the fall of 2000, well before moving to OH.

I had completely forgotten about that site!

Not surprising, as despite the good intentions of Bach and the enigmatic webmaster in starting it, their policy of openly favoring MAPs and guests who harbored mainstream views, and allowing "survivors" to feel welcome to come there and vent rather than simply engage in dialogue with us, made it inevitable that such a group would fail due to the conflicts that such policies on a MAP board will cause. That also made it highly forgettable despite the significant role it played in MAP-teleio dialogue during the 2000's.

Speaking of which, do you remember Common Ground?

Also, I was absolutely certain you were formerly at DanPedo based on things you had said to me, but you corrected me that you had never been a poster there.

Yup, I had never been there. I know it only from hearing about it so much since I started on GC.

He seemed to fade out when the BLM/Antifa stuff puttered out.

I'm glad I wasn't here for that, and the BLM/Antifa supporters here should be thankful for that. I have opposed the above groups just like I have opposed their various counterparts on the Right. I live in one of the neighborhoods that the BLM protesters tore to pieces, and I can tell you that most of the businesses they damaged and looted were small black and Hispanic owned businesses, or pharmacy chains where many black and Hispanic people depended on for employment and which many of the elderly among them depended on to get meds that they needed. There were also a handful of white supporters of the BLM participating in the riots who got targeted and beaten simply for being white (as you surely know, many, many BLM supporters are white, and many opposing them on both the Right and the traditional Left are black and Hispanic). I will never support an organization that does things like that and presents a danger to me and even some of its supporters simply because we are white, and which did far more harm to the livelihoods of decent black and Hispanic people of the labor class than they "helped." These people, like all authoritarians, were all about rage and selfishness, not a set of principles or concern for marginalized groups.

If they targeted the neighborhoods that were inhabited by elitist, wealthy white people, I would have been far less quick to turn on them. And ironically, it is those white people who make up the bulk of white BLM supporters. It wasn't their neighborhoods or businesses that were targeted.

Another thing which left a bad taste in my mouth was watching him absolutely unload on Baldur in the chat for something that seemed rather petty, and then logging out without giving him the chance to reply. Baldur didn't deserve that. Baldur has honest believes and is one of the most level-headed people we have, even toward people he disagrees with.

I will give you my honest opinion and call a spade a spade here. I have considered Baldur a friend in the past, but I'm really iffy about him at times. He is often very level-headed when it comes to civil libertarian matters, but not when it comes to economics; of course, in all fairness, he feels the same about me on those matters, and we'll have to agree to disagree on that. I prefer to stay off economics as much as possible and stand at his side over the matters we do agree on, which are many.

I fully agree with you that he did not deserve to be treated unfairly, and I would likely have agreed with him on some matters during the conflict you mentioned...however, I would have come to that defense from the standpoint of the traditional Left and as a socialist, not from a Right or Libertarian stance (save for civil libertarian matters regarding the latter). Also, one of the reasons I left here in the past was due to Baldur constantly starting fights with me over off-topic matters related to our different views of economics, so even though I still respect him, I will never again consider him a friend after that. I say this knowing he will likely see it, because I feel more comfortable with that than saying anything "behind his back," and I don't think I said anything here that he isn't already aware of. However, I respect him enough to always be fair with him when he is being fair with me, and I greatly appreciate all he has done for GC for many years, and always enjoy his posts as he has left me with a number of good insights over the years. I would not want to see GC without him.

I can never get my head around those who demand censorship over debate, or secondly, boycott over debate. That was what you and I, and nearly everyone who tried our best to build GC into an interesting and worthy place used to value more than anything else. Open honest debate.

As you are fully aware, the mainstream Left has abandoned free and open debate and opposition to censorship in the name of "preserving democracy" (whatever the hell the word "democracy" means to them now, which appears to simply mean "Democrat and mainstream Left talking points"). The Right has been terrible on that in the past too, but has become better on it in recent years due to the mainstream Left attempting to censor them. This forced the emergence of a New Right, and I tend to respect people that are part of that portion of the right-wing spectrum, like Tucker Carlson, even though we obviously disagree on a lot of things too, and like most people in the media regardless of political leanings, Tucker loves to spread ignorant hatred of MAPs and paranoia over youth sexual expression. But sadly, you need to expect this in the current climate, as even very brave and well-informed people are going to willfully fall short on this most explosive of topics as long as the moral panics continue.They are simply not ready, emotionally speaking, to do otherwise at this point in time.

Speaking of, wasn't it you who threw the name Matt Taibbi a while back in terms of journalist types we agreed we liked? I wonder what you think of him now, since, similar to Glenn Greenwald, some people are tempted to throw them to the curb once their moral convictions no longer match the reposturings that occur on both the Left and the Right. Stand firm on your beliefs, and you create a new bastion on haters who are mobile in terms of their own.

Yes. Even though it's natural for people to change their views over time and in light of new info becoming available, and that in fact is part of our goal, they should always adhere to a set of principles that support the foundation of the Bill of Rights. Once you throw a monkey wrench in that, you introduce a cancer cell that threatens to take the whole framework down. Very few people, even some really great civil libertarians, do not yet "get" this.


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