What's with the "You're with us or against us" thinking recently?

There are people who are for and against civil rights, Invictus. Duh...since when has this been the case only "lately"?

Not everyone who is anti-YL is a power mad youth-hating psychopath.

And where did I say that? Or does your own lack of respect for youths rights cause you to feel the need to "step out" and come to the defense of the non-choicers? I call such people anti-youth rights, not "psychopaths" or "power mad," though they certainly do not want to lose their power over youths.

I'm worried you're heading the same way as mike, because he was incapable of realising that not everyone who doesn't subscribe to your beliefs is against you and that was what ultimately got him banned.

I've always spoken as I have, Invictus, so kindly cease your typical revisionist history to try and imply otherwise. What you are trying to do, which is a typical non-choicer tactic, is to try to convince me that those who advocate youth rights and those who oppose them can somehow still be allies, so I should treat those who do not respect youths as "brothers" simply because we share a general AttB. Yet you ignore Taffy's mindless rantings about how those who support youth rights are "anti-parent," etc. If you're allegedly against such misinterpretations, why don't you lecture HIM about how those who oppose parental power are not necessarily anti-parent? No, the major concern you have here, Invictus, is in challenging my views, rather than my attitude, and you see nothing wrong with the ridiculous rantings of Taffy. Challenging my views is far from a problem, because I will do the same and it's a very important civil right, but in terms of your reasons for making this post, you could be more honest.

Stop over-politicising everything,

I'm not "over-politicizing" anything. Politics is an extreme powerful force in society that is very real, and that holds sway over our social environment, being a slave only to the economic reality over and above it. What I am doing is making you nervous with the views I'm expressing, and this post of yours reminds me that I'm doing my job well.


YL is not a binary choice, people agree with different parts of YL and to different degrees.

Those who are YLists all adhere to the same basic tenets. Those who support parental power and the continued economic and political enslavement of children to the whims of their biological progenitors and adult politicians are NOT advocating "parts" of YL simply by using words like "rights," "responsibility," etc., when they are actually talking about the exact opposite of these things. Considering how obvious Taffy and others are with these rants, it behooves me to wonder why nothing they say ever bothers you, if you were truly concerned with people mistating others. I'm not going to shut up about my views and start kissing up to the anti's among us, Invictus, so learn to deal with that. That is what you are actually trying to get me to do in an under-handed fashion. Lot's of luck, pal...you'll need more of it than you'll ever have to get me to do that.

Personally I admire Tafkaps for having the balls to hold his own opinions even when everyone else is bashing him even though there's little I agree with him on.

No, you admire him because his views are consonant with your own, as your under-handed challenges to my views are making very clear. Personally, I think you're as much of an anti as he is, and I stand by it. And I've stood my ground against NUMEROUS people at a time bashing me for my views on youth rights off of this board, and if you saw that going on, I would be willing to bet my entire life savings that you would admire them, rather than me.

We are all in this together Diss.

No, those who oppose the emancipation of youths and MAA's alike are all in this together, and those who are in general support of those rights, no matter their AttB or age, are likewise in it together. Simply sharing a general AttB DO NOT make us "automatic" allies. In fact, the latter is a downright dangerous school of thought that I will never hesitate to call you and others on. I think it's foolish of you to insult my intelligence in this matter, and I DO NOT consider you an ally in any way, shape, or form, Invictus. Unlike you, I will tell you EXACTLY what I think of you, in no uncertain terms, and I will not put up any pretense to doing otherwise.

We are all oppressed to one degree or another even those who have no desire to actually form relationships with minors.

If this was your underhanded attempt to try and rationalize youth oppression, then it was extremely silly. And some minority groups are MUCH more oppressed than others, so we are NOT all equal in our oppression. And I think oppression is a VERY big deal, and that is why I do not consider myself "in it together" with anyone who has a nonchalant or supportive attitude towards oppression.

Tafkaps isn't your real enemy, it's the antis, real child abusers and anti-youth liberation political organisations (anti as in actually against, not anti as in not pro-YL) that are our collective enemy and if we sit here arguing about what the other person is "really" saying they've already won. And I for one don't want them to win because that would cause real harm to kids.

And just because you have an attraction to youths, doesn't mean you cannot be an anti, a CA, or pro-parental power, especially if you happen to be a parent. Saying that all MAA's are pro-youth rights is ridiculous, and it shows how selectively you read Taffy's posts. Your real objective here, I think, is to defend his views, and try to get me to ultimately modify my pro-choice views to be more sympathetic with the moral imperatives of those who today control youths. The thing about Mike Van Hauten that causes you to speak out against him (something you hesitated to do before he was banned) is how much you feared his strong pro-choice stance, and had little to do with his attitude problems. Stop talking to me as an ally, Invictus, because I do not consider you to remotely fit that appellation. You are not one of the many people here who have earned my respect.