...I doubt the stigmas will be fully lifted, if to any degree at all. The laws are reinforced by powerful social stigmas. If this wasn't the case with the stigmas, then the laws wouldn't be popular enough to maintain, let alone enforce. I have heard this particular line of reasoning that Todd now follows numerous times over the years...that the laws HAVE to be there to insure that the few cases of abuse that MIGHT occur do not occur.

I think supporting the laws yet struggling against the social stigmas against pedophilia and hebephilia are mutually exclusive quests. Intergenerational love will always be despised for as long as the laws remain on the books. There is no way to de-stigmatize intergenerational attraction as long as these laws remain in full force.

This is why I oppose these laws so strongly. In contrast to the shot that Enigma took on me down below, alleging that I do not like to hear different views because of how strongly I sometimes oppose the proponents of these laws, is a short-sighted allegation. As another poster recently told me, as a pro-choice activist I have a responsibility to respond to the views of the non-choicers. The "peace and harmony" camp may not like this sometimes, and they may try to claim that we "do not like to hear different views" (ignoring the fact that we hear the non-choice views CONSTANTLY and that it's the dominant view in society so it's not like we can actually AVOID listening to it), but taking a hard-line stance is very necessary at times.

Not all MAA's are going to agree with adult/youth sexuality. Now, to put paid to Enigma's claim that I do not listen to different views, let me make something clear right now.

I DO have reservations about adult/child sex in certain aspects. I do not, for example, think it's a good idea--physically speaking--for adults to have sexual intercourse with youths under the age of 12, before their bodies are sufficiently developed. I DO think that laws to prevent abuse SHOULD be on the books; I simply do not think that an adult should be mistrusted in all cases BEFORE he becomes involved in such a relationship. Trust should be given until an adult proves that they are unworthy of the trust. This is consonant with democratic goals that presume innocence until guilt can be proven. So I don't think we should assume that an adult is abusive unless he/she presents evidence for it. I AM concerned about the possibility of REAL abuse, however. I just don't see the majority of genuine abuse coming from STRANGERS. This is why I support youth liberation so strongly. It would attack the crux of the problem.

See, I DO listen to the concerns of the other side, and I DO share them. I simply do not believe that guilt should be ASSUMED if there is no proof that any wrongdoing has occurred. In other words, I do not think it should be assumed that an adult threatened a youth into speaking favorably on the relationship if there is no previous reason to believe that the adult has such character deficiencies.

To make a long story short, we NEED strong activism to oppose the social stigmas and the laws simultaneously. Norbert is doing a good job of that in Holland right now.

As a pro-choice activist who can sometimes get "loud" and really pissed, I do not expect to be liked by everyone at all times. There are many people in the pro-choice camp who can't stand activists and activism, especially when it get's "loud." Nevertheless, I believe that activism is every bit as important as building community. And contrary to the beliefs of some, I AM interested in hearing ways that youths can be protected from abuse in a youth-liberated society; I simply will not support ways that are not consonant with democracy. But I have heard the standard non-choice stance over and over and over again, and I DO NOT agree with it, nor do I benefit from hearing it spouted ad infinitum.

I would also like to point out that I am NOT taking a counter-shot at Enigma, who was once a valued friend of mine. Rather, I am taking the opportunity to respond to a claim that he made against me. He's been away for a while, and doesn't seem to be up to date on a lot of things.