Apparently there's been some confusion, because I was under the impression that you were agreeing with turtle that parents are justified in using force and coercion (including violence) to enforce their will on children.

But it seems that we actually agree.

(Incidentally, I was being tounge-in-cheek with my reference to "Cheetos addiction," bbut maybe that didn't come across.)

The whole point of this sub-thread was my anger at this post:

"there is NO WAY you can be a parent and NEVER force or coerce your kids to follow the rules. especially if you DONT spank them. the more lenient you are with your kids,the more they will push you to your limits. this is especially true of younger kids who dont care for your adult rationalizations. why? because they are HUMAN! most people dont like being told what to do,and that is EXACTLY what parents do on a day to day basis. do you really expect any parent here to believe that kids will always do what you want them to without you using force or control?! do you really expect any of us to believe that you can be happy in a house where the kids do as they want? you going to let them live on a diet of pepsi and cheetos? how would you stop them without force or coercion??? you going to let them run the streets all night? what do you tell the cops when they are brought home??? you going to let them beat each other up and destroy the house? how do you negotiate with a spoiled child i wonder???

we as adults have laws we abide by for a reason. kids have rules to follow until they turn 18. that is life. deal with it. no matter how much you love kids,sometimes enough is enough,and a line must be drawn. if you are afraid to structure your own household and enforce the rules,then i say you are a poor parent..."